The Eighties Los Angeles Lakers had been one of the vital dominant groups in sports activities. At a time when skilled basketball was on its heels, the Lakers introduced new pleasure: Magic Johnson versus Larry Bird, Jerry Buss and the glitzy Forum Club, and an up-tempo move offense. That’s the story of HBO’s big-budget sequence Winning Time, whose Season 1 finale aired on Sunday, May 8.
David Sims, Vann R. Newkirk II, and Ross Andersen—three of The Atlantic’s greatest basketball followers—get collectively to debate the sequence. What do they make of the accusations from former gamers that the present is inaccurately over-the-top? Does the producer Adam McKay’s fashion energize and streamline the present—or simply add distraction on high of the glut of story traces? And how do you dramatize a historical past with a widely known end result?
Listen to their dialogue right here:
The following transcript has been edited for size and readability. It accommodates spoilers for the primary season of Winning Time.
David Sims: We’re right here to speak about Winning Time, the HBO sequence in regards to the Eighties Los Angeles Lakers, whose first season simply wrapped up. It’s set in the course of the workforce’s 1979–80 championship season. And it’s about Jerry Buss. It’s about Magic Johnson. It’s about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It’s about one million different issues. It has so many individuals within the forged. It’s acquired possibly a dozen main story traces that it’s leaping round on. It’s prompted Jerry West to say he needs to sue HBO all the best way to the Supreme Court. It’s one of the vital hyped exhibits of the 12 months. Were you guys pumped for it?
Ross Andersen: I felt like I used to be in The Truman Show and somebody had made a particular pop-cultural product that was only for me. I like the Showtime Lakers. That’s the place my Laker love began. My children each put on 32 in youth basketball for Magic Johnson. We are a Magic Johnson family. So yeah, I used to be pumped.
It’s additionally humorous. I do know we’re going to get into this a bit later, however a number of the controversy about how these guys had been depicted … I suppose I didn’t concern that a lot as a result of, to me, a number of these items appeared priced into their reputations already. I definitely didn’t have any concern getting in that these heroic figures of my youth had been going to be unmasked or something like that.
Sims: Right? Plenty has been written through the years in regards to the drama of the Showtime Lakers. It’s not like several of those figures are seen as harmless heroes, proper?
Vann Newkirk II: I imply, the Jeff Pearlman guide the present relies on isn’t not juicy. For my half, I used to be . Before I had children, at any time when I used to be bored, I’d activate Hardcourt Classics, so that is clearly a present that’s tailor-made to my pursuits as properly. As a Charlotte Hornets fan, I’m a giant Lakers hater, so I additionally acquired an opportunity to see all of the issues in regards to the Lakers mythology that I’ve hated endlessly. But I’m additionally a giant Magic and Kareem fan. It’s onerous to seek out extra issues in a present about basketball on HBO Max which are going to get me to observe.
Sims: This is strictly how I felt. I imply, sure, I’m a Knicks fan, not a Lakers fan. The Showtime Lakers are earlier than my basketball-watching days, but it surely’s definitely the mythology you’re taught as you’re stepping into basketball. So a lot of that mythology comes from round this time. When the present premiered and acquired sort of combined critiques, the preliminary buzz was a lot about what they’re getting unsuitable or why they’re telling one thing a sure manner that I truly prevented it for a number of weeks. Then I began binging it and located I did discover it extremely watchable. I don’t know the way you guys felt, by and huge, but it surely a minimum of was all the time a simple factor to have on.
Newkirk: Yeah. I’ve by no means had an actual urge to show it off. And I’ve actual reactions to numerous present TV. If I don’t prefer it, I actually don’t prefer it. (Laughs.) I’ve all the time made the case for the comeback of mediocre TV. Regular TV. Average TV. And I really feel like this was it for me.
Sims: Yeah, I might agree with that.
Andersen: Yeah, I discovered it eminently watchable. I don’t know if we’re able to get into our deep impressions of the present, but it surely has left me surprisingly cool all through, given the subject material. I’m within the Venn diagram for the audience. And I don’t know if that’s the form of Adam McKay-ness of it—with the Instagram filters they’re utilizing to retro-ize it ,which strikes me as bizarre—or what. I really feel like one of many pleasures of interval tv is getting the cinematic therapy of an period that you simply didn’t inhabit. And so, seeing it by way of a sort of grainy VHS factor is bizarre. But on the flip aspect of that, the tempo is actually kinetic. I used to be by no means able to flip away.
Sims: Yeah, the pilot is directed by Adam McKay, the Oscar-winning filmmaker. Everyone is aware of him from his comedies after which his more moderen fashion that he exhibits off in The Other Guys and Vice, the place somebody would look into the digicam impulsively and be like: “Hey, my name is Magic Johnson.” Or the movie would change with soar cuts for no motive. There’ll be a freeze body. For occasion, somebody would possibly say they’ve by no means carried out cocaine and there’s a freeze body saying, “Oh yes, he did.” I’m making this up, however that’s the basic vibe, I might say. There was a time when that was totally different and intriguing, and now it’s gotten somewhat tiring. It’s particularly tiring on a weekly tv present, in comparison with a film the place you’re locked in with it.
Newkirk: Among Adam McKay’s work, it felt probably the most like The Big Short to me. And I believe the issues that did it for me in The Big Short, particularly after they do the asides to elucidate all of the advanced monetary mechanisms or no matter, is that you simply perceive there’s a little bit of magic there. You don’t actually have to grasp it to get the story. And I really feel like that was a foul method for speaking about basketball. Do you actually have to elucidate a quick break? You’ve acquired to have somewhat bit of religion within the viewers. We’re not speaking about CDOs right here. We’re not speaking about, like, credit score default swaps. We’re speaking about placing the ball within the hoop.
Sims: And we’re speaking about probably the most well-known basketball workforce of all time! Arguably. We’re not even speaking about some obscure a part of the NBA. This is Magic and Kareem. This is the Showtime Lakers. But, simply to form of give the fundamental setup, it’s about basically Jerry Buss’s first season proudly owning the workforce, Magic’s first season on the workforce, and the Lakers 1980 championship. (Spoiler: The Lakers received the title.)
It’s structured somewhat oddly. There’s a number of setup about Jerry shopping for the workforce, about who they’re going to draft, about Magic becoming in, in regards to the teaching state of affairs. And that is all the time a problem I discover with true-story narratives. I do know they’re going to draft Magic Johnson. I do know that he’s going to be good. I really feel like this present, particularly early on, finds itself needing to juice issues up wherever they will.
Andersen: I had the identical sense. Even although I used to be tremendous excited in regards to the present, it didn’t actually decide up for me till 4 episodes in, after they had been in Palm Springs for coaching camp. The Jack McKinney story line, out of all the weather of the present, was in all probability the one I knew the least about. He’s the architect of the Showtime fashion of play. And the present portrays him as difficult: sympathetic in sure methods, but in addition sort of a jerk in others. That’s the place it actually got here alive for me.
But, David, talking of there being so many story traces on this present, it does appear to be they don’t know what arc to pursue on the middle of it, which is why I discovered that center stretch of episodes, the place we’re targeted on McKinney after which the succession with Riley and Westhead, to be probably the most attention-grabbing sustained arc for me.
Newkirk: Up till Palm Springs, you’ve acquired, basically, what I might say is a bunch of shorts in regards to the Lakers. And then you definately get somewhat little bit of narrative cohesion with how Showtime was truly constructed, which is what this season is about. And you hit all of the beats: He’s a jerk. People aren’t shopping for into the method. And then they notice that he’s acquired one thing there. And whilst performed and trite as that’s, it really works. It truly pulls collectively a narrative that’s not current at first, but it surely additionally sort of falls aside on the finish.
Sims: I’m simply going to attempt to lay out the most important story traces of the season. And I agree with you a bit, Ross. This present can’t fairly choose what it needs to be about. In my opinion, the Magic-Kareem dynamic might be what it needs to be about. But I do assume it’s simply that there’s a lot different stuff that it’s simple to get distracted by that they sort of flit round.
First, you’ve acquired Jerry Buss, performed by John C. Reilly, who’s the man who purchased the Lakers in 1979. There’s a narrative line about him constructing the airplane in midair and making an attempt to maintain all the things solvent and revamp the workforce. And you observe his mom, performed by Sally Field, and his daughter Jeanie.
Then you’ve acquired Magic Johnson, performed by Quincy Isaiah. His drafting; his future spouse, Cookie; his sexual misadventures; his becoming into the workforce; you’ve acquired all that. You’ve acquired Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who’s performed by Solomon Hughes, who’s form of the established star. He’s clearly one of the vital well-known basketball gamers of all time, and it follows him coping with the truth that he form of hates stardom, and he has a number of issues with the best way America is.
Newkirk: Fair sufficient.
Then you’ve acquired Jerry West, performed by Jason Clarke, who’s a former Lakers star and the outdated coach, who’s eaten up by anxieties and insecurities. Then you’ve acquired Jack McKinney, performed by Tracy Letts, the brand new coach who has this Shakespeare-quoting assistant in Paul Westhead, performed by Jason Segel, after which Pat Riley, an outdated coach performed by Adrien Brody. There’s a lot happening, and I do really feel like I’m lacking stuff! It’s extraordinarily overwhelming. There’s a lot happening.
Newkirk: Paula Abdul is within the present.
Sims: Yes, proper! The origin of the Laker Girls is even in it. The forged is unbelievable, and the quantity of story traces they will dip into is as properly. But the problem with the primary season of the Showtime Lakers is that it doesn’t truly finish with Magic and Larry going through off. The Lakers ended up taking part in the Philadelphia 76ers within the finals, so it could actually’t fairly do the Magic-versus-Larry arc and possibly that’s why the present couldn’t fairly calm down on one factor.
Andersen: Let’s speak about Kareem somewhat bit. I share your sense, David, that Kareem is without doubt one of the most attention-grabbing figures in American sports activities. Full cease. And the present doesn’t do a lot with him, truly. He has a number of display time. He by no means actually does something stunning. They settle into that form of flat Kareem-as-unapproachable-captain thought.
Sims: Right. Especially within the first half of the season, he actually is kind of backgrounded.
Andersen: Yeah. And Kareem is somebody who’s under-dramatized in popular culture. I needed to see extra out of that and don’t really feel like I acquired it.
Newkirk: Yeah, as a lot consideration as they’ve gotten about not being trustworthy to actuality, this truly felt like some extent the place they weren’t taking dangers, possibly in service of not getting folks upset. I really feel like he’s surprisingly flat. And to me that does really feel like a symptom of them taking part in it secure. With that stated, I do love how he appears to be upset at even being within the present.
Sims: What about Quincy Isaiah as Magic Johnson? Magic is offered as the alternative of Kareem. He’s all the time smiling, he’s blissful, he’s cheerful. He needs to get the entire workforce concerned. He’s simply trying to have a celebration.
Newkirk: I do assume his performing is invigorating. What dragged me by way of the components of the present that I wasn’t too smitten by was that I simply actually take pleasure in watching him play Magic. And on archetypal tales that resonate: anyone going to Hollywood, having to regulate, and getting caught up within the life is one which’s nonetheless attention-grabbing to me.
Andersen: Yeah, I assumed Quincy Isaiah was fairly nice. Sometimes casting for bodily likeness can go disastrously unsuitable. I believe this works very well. He does look remarkably like Magic, particularly in profile. The actress that performs Cookie can also be actually unbelievable. As the season progresses, that’s the place you noticed Quincy Isaiah come alive, in these actually intimate settings. Have you guys watched the brand new documentary on Apple TV+ about Magic?
It’s known as They Call Me Magic. And you possibly can inform from the title, it’s a five-hour business for Magic Johnson. Except, they do get fairly deep on the Cookie stuff and it makes the stuff within the present frankly seem like hagiography of magic.
Sims: Everything about Winning Time is fairly peppy. Even when it’s coping with darker or extra fraught materials, it’s nonetheless a really shiny, fizzy present. Even when it’s about Spencer Haywood struggling to remain alive and keep awake on the court docket. Do you assume they thought it was simply too dramatic? Too a lot of a bummer?
Andersen: The full depth of Magic’s portrayal unfolds over 10 years. And a number of probably the most terrible stuff hasn’t occurred but, to be honest, however they present him wrestling with it in a manner that I believe does Magic some favors in Winning Time. Whereas the documentary—which once more, oddly, the remainder of it is rather like: Here’s Magic Johnson, the best winner that ever lived—does actually go deep on the Cookie stuff in a manner that’s actually unflattering. I watched it with my 12-year-old son who worships Magic Johnson, and he was bumming about Magic after that.
Sims: I imply, Magic is kind of open about that stuff. I suppose, to his credit score. And the factor you’re citing right here, Ross, that I believe is attention-grabbing is that this present has come underneath a number of scrutiny for, “How close to the truth is it? How much is it inflating things just to create some drama for serialized television?”
But then on the alternative finish, I do really feel like sports activities documentaries are beginning to tilt towards a number of this stuff being produced by the individual it’s about. Even The Last Dance in 2020, which was a lot enjoyable to observe, couldn’t fairly escape the truth that Michael Jordan was deeply concerned in its making. It was by no means making an attempt to be like: “This is the real story and this is everything.” But whenever you’re working with the topic, you’re going to have that sort of battle come up. Is there a approach to chart a center path on this?
Newkirk: Yeah, as a lot as I beloved The Last Dance, it’s completely house-approved. And the explanation it was so in style is as a result of it tells us a narrative we already know and we get to relive it. We get to be nostalgic for it. It’s a story created by his workforce, by the NBA, by Nike and the Jordan model.
We acquired to dip into that anthology. And that was what folks wanted at the moment within the pandemic. And I believe that’s truly form of the place a number of these documentaries—not simply sports activities documentaries, however simply the shape as content material—collide and merge into one. We’re mainly going to be injecting it instantly into our mind stems quickly sufficient. It’s the identical manner with the Kanye West documentary, Jeen-Yuhs. As a lot as I beloved watching it, it was completely accredited by Kanye. He’s a producer on the factor. The footage comes very intimately from him. You get the sense that, though it does run up towards the controversies, if it had gone too far, it wouldn’t have ever seen the sunshine of day. And that’s sort of the automobile now. It’s very efficient. But I don’t know if there’s a center path.
Andersen: Yeah, and for individuals who aren’t NBA heads just like the folks on this podcast, The Last Dance did complicate the determine of Jordan for individuals who had solely seen him as a sort of business image of excellence their total lives. The Magic doc simply doesn’t do this. As for a center path, we see this in our tiny little trade. Stars have their very own entry to social media, so it’s onerous to get them to sit down down for one thing like a extremely goal journal profile. It does appear to be the pattern is main there.
Sims: The magic of The Last Dance is that, positive, it’s a must to take care of Michael Jordan being concerned in producing it, however you’re going to get this trove of footage that’s simply so compelling that it’s well worth the entry, proper? Like that’s completely well worth the entry. But on the opposite aspect of issues, you’ve Winning Time, the place it’s superb to compress issues or often insert a personality who’s a composite, like these form of docu-shows and films do on a regular basis.
But with Jerry West, who’s somebody who has talked in very actual phrases in regards to the melancholy he struggled with as a participant and as an govt, the present has him as this loud ache within the ass who was all the time breaking golf golf equipment and quitting in entrance of everybody. I do really feel prefer it has to cartoonize him somewhat bit simply to make issues somewhat poppier. But are we shedding one thing in that? I don’t know. He’s alive and might go on the market and say it’s inaccurate. That’s superb. I don’t assume the Supreme Court goes to have an interest on this case, however what do you guys make of that side of issues? Is it trivializing or is it simply sort of obligatory for good TV?
Newkirk: On the one hand, it’s good TV. Well, it’s common TV, as I described earlier. There was no manner, I believe, to even justify together with him within the story at this level in the event you didn’t have this a part of the arc of his character. There’s no motive to be listening to Jerry West in 1980. He resigns. He’s out the door. They have a brand new coach. It’s Showtime. That’s the beat.
And if you wish to have a motive to care about him when, spoiler alert, he comes again to the Lakers within the upcoming seasons, it’s a must to set up some motive to care about him now. And so, simply from a storytelling perspective, that’s how that cookie crumbles. He’s additionally proper to be upset about it if it’s not true to his life. I might be upset about it in the event that they made a fictionalized model of The Atlantic and I used to be throwing issues out of home windows. I wouldn’t find it irresistible, however that’s the medium.
Andersen: I used to be actually sympathetic to Jerry West’s claims after I’d solely seen the season opener. Those episodes weren’t my sense of Jerry West. But because the season progressed, I felt like they difficult his character in attention-grabbing methods and he truly comes throughout as fairly sympathetic.
Sims: Yeah, I might agree. It’s the early episodes the place that they had the largest drawback of needing problems, when the precise problems aren’t that extreme. Jerry’s going to purchase the workforce. Magic goes to get drafted. Kareem is the aloof kung-fu grasp who nobody might actually perceive, and Magic is the blissful, smiley man who had an excessive amount of enjoyable typically. And Jerry is the man who received the MVP of a Finals that he didn’t win. He’s the eternally tortured man who solely climbed the mountain as soon as, so I perceive why they slot him into the position he’s acquired as a barely extra tortured man. But it does easy out by the tip. Everything on this present sort of settles down by the tip.
Andersen: I simply really feel like Jerry might be mad that they haven’t fast-forwarded to the scene the place he traded Vlade Divac to Vann’s Hornets for Kobe Bryant.
Newkirk: Oh, goodness, I nonetheless dream about it.
Sims: The teaching factor although, you stated, Ross, is the story I knew the least. I didn’t actually find out about Jack McKinney, who was the coach of the Lakers basically for round 13 video games in 1979. He put in the proto-Showtime system that’s going to grow to be how they play basketball. It’s a extra run-and-gun system. And then he injured himself in a motorbike accident and by no means actually got here again. He recovered, however was severely injured, so he had all these reminiscence issues. And the techniques of the Showtime Lakers had been genuinely revolutionary, so I respect the present digging into that.
Andersen: Yeah, that’s proper. If the NBA comes up at a cocktail party, one in all my well-known trolls is to say that Magic Johnson is the best participant ever. And the one actual argument in my quiver is that he made the sport lovely. That Lakers workforce made it a sport of move and motion, versus locking down within the half-court, throwing it into a giant man, after which swinging round Princeton-style.
Newkirk: I needed them to make extra use of Dr. J. That was my foremost gripe. He is actually, to me, one of the vital fascinating folks in NBA historical past. Everybody focuses on the Magic and Bird rivalry. Everybody focuses on them as the 2 polar opposites within the league, which is nice stuff. But additionally, I believe there’s a lot to wring out of Dr. J being the stylistic predecessor for Magic and Showtime, creating this model of basketball that was thought-about to be too Black for mainstream viewers on the time.
Sims: “Too flashy.” “This isn’t how you play basketball.” Blah, blah, blah.
Newkirk: Yeah, I needed extra of that.
Sims: I get that in the event you’re making a present in regards to the Lakers, you need Magic and Kareem on the forefront, however I might be fascinated by one thing that zeroed in on the nitty-gritty of the tactical evolution that’s happening behind the scenes. What McKinney thought of needed to be revolutionary to a participant like Kareem who didn’t play quick.
Andersen: What do you all hope for in Season 2? They depart us with a little bit of a bread crumb with the Kareem-finals-MVP bit. They had resolved the sort of Kareem-Magic rigidity so completely earlier than the season even wrapped that you simply’re like: “Oh, there’s not much to wring out here in future seasons, because these guys now have total mutual respect and are perfect teammates together having heart-to-hearts.” And in order that they teased somewhat little bit of how this battle might reassert itself within the subsequent season. Obviously, the Celtics are going to loom giant as a result of they’re going to have their second within the solar. We’re going to get the ascent of Pat Riley. But what will we wish to see in Season 2?
Newkirk: I do assume Season 2 goes to have one of the vital dramatic moments in Showtime historical past, which is, earlier than Riley, we’ve got to determine how Westhead will get out the door.
Newkirk: And that’s a completely bonkers second in actual life. So I believe that’ll be enjoyable.
Sims: And that’s one thing the place, looking back, Magic form of took the blame on the time and now it’s seen as extra difficult than folks thought.
Newkirk: That’ll be enjoyable. We’ve acquired two extra seasons of going towards the Sixers earlier than we even get into the Celtics drama although?
Sims: I’ve to think about, since they’ve ordered a second season of this present, that Season 2 goes to should compress issues.
Newkirk: The subsequent season, I believe it’s unavoidable. They should lose to the Celtics within the subsequent season. It has to fast-forward to 1984. I don’t assume there’s any viable approach to inform the story with out that being within the second season.
Sims: So it’s form of the darkish season of ups and downs with the Celtics on the rise.
Andersen: Well, this season opens with Magic at Cedars-Sinai, foreshadowing the HIV analysis. Presumably they wish to land there. David, extra in regards to the enterprise of Hollywood than we do, and the chances of this present getting to a few or 4 seasons. It feels to me like you possibly can see a three-season arc the place they lose to the Celtics in ’84 on the finish of Season 2, they arrive again and have the glory of the later championships, after which they finish on Magic’s HIV analysis, his pivot to a brand new life, and finally the tip of Showtime.
Sims: I might say a minimum of three seasons. The present has been a rankings success. It’s had the sort of numbers I believe HBO was in all probability actually thrilled with, in that it’s grown its viewers over the season. It didn’t open large after which shrink. It’s truly grown. So I’ve to imagine that signifies good word-of-mouth. And this can be a large glitzy streaming present that I assume prices a ton of cash to make. This factor has an enormous forged with a number of well-known folks in it. Nothing about it appears to be like notably low cost.
So I don’t know. I ponder the way you get the stakes feeling clear once we know the way forward for this workforce. But I additionally am somebody who will flick on a 30 for 30 that I’ve seen earlier than. There’s one thing comforting about taking journeys down reminiscence lane.